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Post by leeenfield on Oct 1, 2011 21:08:27 GMT 1
Did Inglis actually manufacture the Mk2 gas cylinder without the vent holes under the bipod ring? weaponsonline.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=bren&thread=1023&page=1All (admittedly not that many) of the Inglis Brens I can find have the early vents. I've examined 2 1944 Inglis MkII equipped with the MkI style vented gas cylinder, and the Inglis/CAL .280 1945 dated MkII (apparently 15T7544) illustrated on P.257 of BGS still has a MkI style gas cylinder. I would assume that the .280 experimental action would incorporate the latest available upgrades to the componants. This is true especially for a comparative trial from 27 Oct - 4 Nov 1950. What gas cylinder equips the Inglis 8mm Brens? Just for timings sake, BGS P.174 says that the Mk3 Bren was first produced at Enfield on May 26, 1944, and the Mk3 Bren was approved for service July 1944. P.174 regarding the MkIII Bren says "The first 300 Mk3 Brens produced were still fitted with Mk1 gas cylinders, after which all Mk3 guns came factory equipped with the Mk3 gas cylinders." To me that would seem to indicate that Mk3 gas cylinder production didn't start until July '44 at Enfield, had the non-vented Mk2 gas cylinder production started in Brit Mfg Mk2 guns before that date? |
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Post by woodsy on Oct 2, 2011 8:41:13 GMT 1
I have checked my three John Inglis Brens ( Mk I(M), Mk II, and 8mm Chinese contract ) and they all have the vent holes underneath the bipod mount.
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Post by Kev on Oct 2, 2011 12:10:07 GMT 1
 Leeenfield they are some good observations and an interesting topic which I hope others may be able to throw so light on. 1st off with reference to the 'early' and 'late pattern' Canadian MK2 gas cylinder shown above and which I have made reference to before in past posts. This was the reference term given by Peter Laidler to the Canadian gas cylinders but I am unsure if this is refering to late manufacture or late service history. I have also not been able to find a part number for the 'early' cylinder (if it was numbered differently) .....can anyone help with this ? My reference to Canadian MK2 Brens only goes to 1944 with .303 guns and two 'normal' 7.92mm Brens.All these have the 'early' gas cylinder as you have also observed on the 45 dated Inglis .280 calibre Bren. My two 'sterile' 7.92 Brens DO have the UK type gas cylinder fitted,but as they are sterile they are of course not dated.Can anyone else confirm this with their number prefix sterlile Brens ? The only reference I can find to gas cylinders in Canadian EMERs is that all MKI gas cylinders will be replaced by MG 4471 and all MK3 cylinders that are worn will also be replaced by MG 4471.I can find no mention of updating MK2 cylinders to a later pattern. The MK3 gas cylinder is introduced in LoC's in Nov 44. Mk2 UK Monotype Brens were first made in Sept 41(with the MK2 cylinder). Not quite sure if this topic will go on to include Australian use of MKI cylinders , the introduction of carbon scraping pliers for the MK3 and MK2 cylinders now that the carbon now built up in the internal canulure instead of the bipod sleeve etc ? .........interesting ! ATB Kevin |
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Post by britplumber on Oct 2, 2011 18:38:47 GMT 1
15T3820 and 15T6949 have the early style Mk2 aswell.
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Post by Kev on Oct 2, 2011 21:53:30 GMT 1
Canadian Army Catalogue of Ordnance Stores, June 1959 lists the UK type MK2 gas cylinder under it's NSN - 1005-21-103-1319.
........very late but it's a reference.
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Post by britplumber on Oct 3, 2011 20:58:05 GMT 1
-21- cheaky canadians, should have been -99-
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Post by Kev on Oct 3, 2011 21:07:56 GMT 1
brit 'if' it was made in Canada shouldn't it qualify for a Canuck
-21- tag ?
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Post by leeenfield on Oct 5, 2011 21:04:54 GMT 1
Kev, does that mean the Aussie's built MkII gas cylinder equipped MkI(M) guns?
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Post by britplumber on Oct 5, 2011 21:05:06 GMT 1
brit 'if' it was made in Canada shouldn't it qualify for a Canuck -21- tag ? As far as I'm aware, if it was a UK design, it should retain the UK designation of 99. Hence why the Aussies sued a 99 code on their FTR'd guns of Inglis, Lithgow and Enfield manufature. |
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Post by Kev on Oct 6, 2011 1:14:25 GMT 1
brit 'if' it was made in Canada shouldn't it qualify for a Canuck -21- tag ? As far as I'm aware, if it was a UK design, it should retain the UK designation of 99. Hence why the Aussies sued a 99 code on their FTR'd guns of Inglis, Lithgow and Enfield manufature. Just checked the Canadian Army Catalogue of Ordnance Stores again and all the NSN's for Bren parts have the Canadian 21 identity code ! |
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Post by britplumber on Oct 6, 2011 21:37:02 GMT 1
Little buggers!
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Post by Kev on Oct 7, 2011 1:49:10 GMT 1
Kev, does that mean the Aussie's built MkII gas cylinder equipped MkI(M) guns? No LE more directed to Lithgow (as far as I'm aware)never changeing over to the MK3 gas cylinder during production.Hence no carbon fouling pliers/scrappers in any Aussie Illustrated Parts Lists. The 1956 Aussie IPL shows the MK3 gas cylinder but still no carbon scrapers/pliers ! atb Kevin |
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Post by leeenfield on Oct 8, 2011 4:51:55 GMT 1
[quote author=kev board=bren thread=1635 post=7707 time=1317553807snip....
The MK3 gas cylinder is introduced in LoC's in Nov 44.
Mk2 UK Monotype Brens were first made in Sept 41(with the MK2 cylinder).
snip...ATB Kevin
[/quote]
So ALL Monotype/Daimler MkII guns have MkII cylinders from 1941?
Didn't Monotype/Daimler build some MkI Brens? do they have Mk1 gas cylinders?
Enfield didn't (ever?) use Mk3 cylinders in their MkI/"M" guns until mid 1944 (except FTR) when I assume they had been discontinued for Mk3 Brens?.
While Inglis & Lithgow soldiered on with old pattern gas cylinders?
Doesn't the evidence point to the idea that MkII cylinders were only ever produced by Monotype during the war.
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Post by Kev on Oct 10, 2011 20:08:42 GMT 1
So ALL Monotype/Daimler MkII guns have MkII cylinders from 1941?
Didn't Monotype/Daimler build some MkI Brens? do they have Mk1 gas cylinders? No production MKI's by Monotype
Enfield didn't (ever?) use Mk3 cylinders in their MkI/"M" guns until mid 1944 (except FTR) when I assume they had been discontinued for Mk3 Brens?.Yes even the 1st MK3's had the MKI gas cylinderWhile Inglis & Lithgow soldiered on with old pattern gas cylinders?Not sure about Inglis 100% will try and find a few more late serial numbersDoesn't the evidence point to the idea that MkII cylinders were only ever produced by Monotype during the war. The UK type maybe until more Inglis late serial number guns can be examined/verified.And as the 'sterile' Inglis 7.92mm MK2's have the UK type MK2 gas cylinder rather than the Canadian MK2 type these guns bare no date so ?
ATB Kevin
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Post by leeenfield on Oct 16, 2011 4:32:58 GMT 1
So ALL Monotype/Daimler MkII guns have MkII cylinders from 1941? Didn't Monotype/Daimler build some MkI Brens? do they have Mk1 gas cylinders? No production MKI's by MonotypeEnfield didn't (ever?) use Mk3 cylinders in their MkI/"M" guns until mid 1944 (except FTR) when I assume they had been discontinued for Mk3 Brens?. Yes even the 1st MK3's had the MKI gas cylinderWhile Inglis & Lithgow soldiered on with old pattern gas cylinders? Not sure about Inglis 100% will try and find a few more late serial numbersDoesn't the evidence point to the idea that MkII cylinders were only ever produced by Monotype during the war. The UK type maybe until more Inglis late serial number guns can be examined/verified.And as the 'sterile' Inglis 7.92mm MK2's have the UK type MK2 gas cylinder rather than the Canadian MK2 type these guns bare no date so ?ATB Kevin Kevin, I have seen a copy of a mid 1950's CAL colour brochure which shows " rimless " Brens (among other things) as "some of our recent projects" Unfortunately I haven't been able to find it again, but I'm looking. |
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