No3MkI ammo box - or is it?

[andrewupton]

On Wednesday night I saw the following listed for sale on Ebay. After speaking to Richard I decided to take a risk and bought it the next morning, and it arrived here in the post Friday morning:

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ANTIQUE-WWI-ARMY-BULLET-AMMO-BOX-BRASS-MILITARY-WAR-MOD-/250881046220?pt=UK_Collectables_Militaria_LE&hash=item3a69acf6cc

What I could see in the listing had me confused - it appeared principally like a British No3MkI ammunition box for the Vickers/Maxim, yet the hinge arrangement was different to that commonly seen, as was the style of closing lock (almost triangular, rather than a rounded off rectangle).

Having now got the box in hand, some things are now clearly visible that weren't in the listing pictures. On the front what appears to be makers mark apparently consisting of the letters "L.I.G" under a broad arrow (all contained within a diamond shaped outline) are visible, as is the date "1914" under the letter "I" (which matches the broad arrow and "I" stamped on the hinge, and would indicate the box was in the Indian Army at some point).

Markings on wood:

postimage.org/image/2ialxro78/full/


It has the classic bullet stencilling to the inside - but it faces the wrong way for use in an ordinary Vickers/Maxim! And the scratch marks from bullet tips predominantly on the one inside side of the box indicate it was used in a gun being fed right to left, with the bullets exiting the box over the keeper for the lock on front (rather than towards the hinge as indicated):

Bullet stencils:

postimage.org/image/1rgew3nk4/full/


And the bottom (just in case it's useful, as it's not shown in the Ebay listing):

Bottom:

postimage.org/image/2ib44ohms/full/


So what do I have here? Whilst it's clearly been heavily used and somewhat abused/repaired none looks like it's been done to deceive or marry non-matching components together, but rather the sort of work a box in hard use would require from time to time. The general look/construction/markings all point to either British or Indian manufacture/use, but the hinge construction has an American flavour to it. Any suggestions or further information greatly welcome...

(and if anyone has some suitable screws to get the handle properly replaced, please get in touch... ).

[woodsy]

Andrew, your box is interesting! I have compared it to my Mk I and Mk II* boxes and there are several differences. These are the brass lined grooves at each end, the hinges, and the screw layout on the base. You may well have a Mk III box if such thing exists, but the base may have been removed at some early stage and replaced the wrong way round which would be possible with the very symmetrical layout of the screws. Your base screw layout shows two screws at each end while both my boxes only have a single central one. Does your box lid have two sets of two holes where the brass retaining straps for the leather handle would have been?

Another possiblity is that you have a box that was made for use with the handful of .303 Colt 'Potato Diggers' that were issued and fed from the left side.

Any other ideas out there?

[andrewupton]

Thanks for the reply Woodsy.

Goldsmith does describe the No3MkIII box, and I have seen pictures of one. Introduced by LoC No 16066 on January 11, 1912 and the standard box in use at the outbbreak of WW1. These are lined with tinned iron sheeting, and have the long leather handle that runs the entire length of the box, being riveted at the front and back ends - so its not one of those either (although if the 1914 date shows when it was made in theory it should be, or if it was an earlier pattern/example and remarked at that time it would also have been expected to have been upgraded to the later pattern, as they did with some of the other patterns as they were improved).

The base having been put back on wrongly is a possibility - it's difficult to tell given the wear, but there is a noticable scratch through the base piece on one side thats stops dead where it meets the body, and might be continued on the body on the corresponding position on the other side. But given how the screws have rusted into the base (and not been touched recently) and the vast majority of the dings and dents clearly match up where they go through where the base joins the body it again is clearly not a recent mistake.

The box actually came with the original brass loops for the handle - the only thing missing is the screws to hold them in place (I suspect the box has been stripped of paint externally, and that someone took the loops and strap off to do it, losing the screws in the process!). The lid itself only has the one set of screw holes that perfectly match the brass loops (they are not quite symmetrical to each other, and individually they fit each of their corresponding marks left in the wood perfectly). One of the marks even has a faint pencilled line between the two screw holes from where it was constructed originally to ensure they were correctly lined up.

The end of the strap has screw holes that match small holes in the box lid. It is not standard military style compared to what is normally used, but again from the marks on the leather and wood it has clearly been in place a very long time.

There are also another two screw holes at the very edges of the lid between the first strap loop and the lock - it looks like someone used the screws to more securely close the box at some point, but again they have been there a very long time.

If anyone has any idea who the maker mark of "L.I.G" in a diamond represents I believe this might answer a lot of the questions as to how or where this oddity managed to spring into existence from.

[Richard Fisher]

Andrew,

Thanks for putting the added description up. I'm not sure what it is but we'll have to keep looking.

Richard

[andrewupton]

I think Woodsy's recent thread on other No3 boxes might have answered my question. Both his boxes carry Roman numerals to designate the mark, and suddenly something clicked - what I had thought was some denting to the end could be more than that. And voila:

postimage.org/image/1acs2g3us/



It looks like it was stamped twice (due to one being noticably off the box edge) and has been slightly eaten away by wear, but I make that a "I" for a No3MkI box myself .

So now I'm wondering if the other "I"'s are the same, and serve to reinforce the MkI designation rather than Indian Army use.

Having also seen Woodsy's MkI I am also starting to believe that 1914 date is a reissue mark and it's actually older than that (though sadly I can't find any other date, try as I might). If it was a very early box that might explain a few non-standard features as they started to iron out the bugs as they found them. Either way I'm very happy with my purchase... ;D