Italian .303 and Prideaux links...

[missingsomething]

Well... just got ahold of these babies... Italian .303 on Prideaux links....



Headstamp - BPD 39 (Bombrini Parodi Delfino, Rome, Italy 1939) and one SMI 937 (Società Metallurgica Italiana, Campo Tizzoro, Italy 1937?)





Why only the partial date on the SMI case?

Italian blue tip = API (phosphorus)
Italian green tip = API (Thermite)

The links are marked MB in oval with dates 3-38 & 5-38. Anyone know who MB is? The other 2 links are marked W.W.G. Mk III and W.W.G. Mk III* in a circular fashion. Anyone know who WWG is?



Anyone know why Italy would be making .303 and links for the vickers just prior to WW2?

Thanks.

[privatefjordy]

The Italian Breda-SAFAT aircraft machine-gun was apparently in 7.7 x56R (.303)

I wonder if Italy might also have produced 7.7 x56R ammunition under contract for the Imperial Japanese Navy?
Three Italian factories were contracted in 1937 to make the Type I rifle for the IJN, so contacts between IJN and Italian arms companies existed, and the IJN were users of 7.7 x56R in their licensed copies of Vickers and Lewis guns.

(The Type I rifle was basically an Arisaka Type 38 rifle, built with a Carcano pattern action, and was chambered for the 6.5 Arisaka round)

[andrewupton]

Aug 5, 2009 4:18:14 GMT 1 missingsomething said:

The links are marked MB in oval with dates 3-38 & 5-38. Anyone know who MB is? The other 2 links are marked W.W.G. Mk III and W.W.G. Mk III* in a circular fashion. Anyone know who WWG is?

WW Greener methinks:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._W._Greener

www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/fullsize/UK%20full/UK%20GREENER%201888%20VOLUNTEER%20GREENER%20MARK.jpg

[missingsomething]

Ok, here is some of what I found out (via smart ppl on my other forum hauntings)

The blue tipped ones, API-phosphorus, are well known in Spain. They were furnished by Italy during the Spanish civil war, for airborne machine guns. In 1959 there were still 50.000 rounds in the Air Force inventory, plus 70.000 of the same kind in 12,7 Breda caliber.

But I had never heard of a thermite bullet with green tip. Green tipped cartridges were shipped to Spain also, but they were AP with steel core, and of course they didn't have the distinctive API holes in the ogive.

The other types sent to Spain were ball and tracer (red tip).

The WWG" Mark III and III* links are British though and were made by W.W.Greener of Birmingham. The difference between the III and III* is a slight change in the strengthening ribs and I believe the radii of the corners.

The "MB" in the oval is Breda Meccanica Bresciana (Brescia Plant of Breda).

Italian 7,7 ammo, besides being used a lot in the Spanish Civil War (Italian Airforce, and also planes supplied to Franco's Forces, which continued making 7,7 (.303) at Sevilla (PS) into the 1950s), was also used widely in North Africa by both Italian Airforce and Specialized Ground Forces, especially after capturing large quantities of Bren Guns in 1940, in the initial push to Egypt.The Italians continued using captured Bren's in NAf until their surrender there in 1942/3.

After WW II, the new Republican Army was armed initially with .303 small arms, and so the factories continued making 7,7 ammo as Rifle ammo; old stocks of course were used up in training.

Italy also made use of Lewis Guns in 7,7 as flexible guns in a lot of its Bomber aircraft, in open cockpits. It is unknown whether these Lewis Guns were made by BSA (some initially were) or they were made "under License" in the 1930s in Italy. Guns from any Italian Royal Airforce craft are exceedingly rare...most were destroyed during or at war's end, although some may have survived in the old airforces of Finland and Spain, and maybe even China...they are just not seen in any collections or Museums.

[captain]

Hi,

Markings MB on Prideaux links are from Mitchell, Birmingham (Ref.: Dolf Goldsmith "Old Grand Lady in ...", page 136). Dolf Goldsmith reports also the use of Vickers mg's by the Italians during the interwar.
Luc

[missingsomething]

Aug 8, 2009 14:40:59 GMT 1 captain said:

Hi,

Markings MB on Prideaux links are from Mitchell, Birmingham (Ref.: Dolf Goldsmith "Old Grand Lady in ...", page 136). Dolf Goldsmith reports also the use of Vickers mg's by the Italians during the interwar.
Luc

Hey luc....

The MB marked are definately Italian.... Here is some more info about the Brit "MB"...

MB in an oval is definitely Breda Meccanica Bresciana . Apart form the fact that you have Italian ammunition in them, those links do not have the Mark No. on them (III or III*) so they are not British issue.

MB however, IS a British code that I believe is that of the Metal Box Co. There were two companies called Mitchell that made links, clips and chargers, John Mitchell of Moland Street, Birmingham and William Mitchell (Pens) Ltd of Washington Works, Smethwick. Neither were called Mitchell Bros.

[missingsomething]

W.M.
Mk III*



P



R



M.S.
III *



Mk III*
Bak-Fin



III*
P



M
III*



Prideaux
Pat. No.
125602/16



W.W.G.
Mk III*



MB
IX-XLII (9-42)



W.W.G. Mk III* (different style)



III
* H.H.E.



MB
4-38

[captain]

Hi,

I have some Prideaux links with only a big C on them. They are copper links.
I think probably American for the .30 air Vickers.
Any idea? Thanks,
Luc

[redroth]

Are the .303 Prideaux links usable in the Water cooled Vickers guns? Would any special modifications be needed. Any draw backs or advantages.
Thanks,
Al

[missingsomething]

Aug 21, 2009 20:39:31 GMT 1 captain said:

Hi,

I have some Prideaux links with only a big C on them. They are copper links.
I think probably American for the .30 air Vickers.
Any idea? Thanks,
Luc

No idea who the "C" is... as for them being copper.... I have seen them as American made as well but have no idea if other countries made copper either.

Are the .303 Prideaux links usable in the Water cooled Vickers guns? Would any special modifications be needed. Any draw backs or advantages.
Thanks,
Al

The Prideaux links should work in any .303 Vickers without modification. The only advantage is that you didn't have a long belt hanging out the left side of the gun after firing. From what I understand is that they can be a bit finicky in feeding. I have never had enough to try and find out.

just my 2 cents

[redroth]

Thanks for the information, the Prideaux links would be most helpful to me here in California as we have limitations on belt length (considered high capacity magazines).