The 11mm Cartridge for the Vickers

[Richard Fisher]

I am trying to find out some more about the 11mm Vickers cartridge and whether it is, for certain, one of those that fits into the exemption granted by virtue of section 58(2) of the Firearms Act 1968, the calibres of which are listed in "Firearms Law: Guidance for the Police. 2002".

To start this, does anyone have a copy of "The History and Development of Small Arms Ammunition" by Hoyem and would be able to scan or copy the pages on 11mm ammunition - I think it is in Volume II or III.

I will contact the Home Office to discuss but at this stage, I am unsure how helpful they may be.

Many thanks,

Richard

[privatefjordy]

Rich,

From memory, the 11mm Vickers used the same case dimensions as the 11mm Gras, but the load and ballistics were different, as it was loaded specifically for 'balloon busting' with incendiary heads.

An 11mm Gras would fit a Vickers, but would probably not function properly, an 11mm Vickers would fit a Gras, but would probably not be safe to use.

Again from memory, both rounds are on the 'approved' list of exempt cartridges and would not require a license.

I have a copy of the list somewhere at home, and I might have some ballistic data. If I get chance to have a dig around, I'll bring the info to Stoneleigh.

George.

[Richard Fisher]

There is a list in the back of "Firearms Law: Guidance to the Police" but only the 'Gras' is mentioned by name and there are no other cartridges with those dimensions. If you have an updated list then that would be great.

Thanks George.

Rich

[privatefjordy]

Rich,

As I'm at work, take a look at this link,

members.shaw.ca/cstein0/metric.htm

I'll still have a look at home for the list and other data.

George

[privatefjordy]

Rich.

I've found some more info on the 11mm Vickers. I'll bring it to Stoneleigh with me.

George.

[Richard Fisher]

Thanks George, I will not be staying long because my back is playing up but will catch up at some point.

Rich

[privatefjordy]

I've emailed you a scan in case we don't see each other. I've lots of people to see both dropping bits off and picking things up, so I will be busier than normal, and there's still the stalls to hunt through.

Are you holding on to the BESA box for now? It might be best.

Hope your back recovers soon.

George.

[Richard Fisher]

I have just received a reply from the Home Office and their stance is that while lawful interpretation is a matter for the Police and ultimately the Courts, their opinion is that the 11mm round, as not specific mentioned in the section of "Firearms Law: Guidance for the Police" is not an antique for the purposes of the legislation.

A dissapointing outcome but perhaps it can be overcome one day.

Regards

Richard

[tonye]

Richard

What exactly do you need to know about the 11mm cartridge? I have details of ballistics etc as well as a couple of examples in my collection, although as they are not British military I tend to use them as trades.

With regards to a previous post, the ordinary 11mm Gras rifle cartridge works perfectly well in an 11mm Vickers, as I have fired one. (and they were black powdwer loaded).

There is quite a lot about the American use of the 11mm in the "History of Modern US Military Small Arms Ammunition" by Woodin, Scranton and Hackley.

Regards
TonyE

[Richard Fisher]

Hi Tony,

Many thanks for the offer. I have already received confirmation from the UK Government that until the list is revised, that exact cartridge does not appear on the list and therefore it is not an antique weapon.

Maybe one day but not today!

Thanks,

Richard