1917A1 for sale

[Kev]

www.esistoire.com/product.php?ref=B30E

ATB Kevin

[britplumber]

It looks like this gun started life as a 1917 and then it was modified to A1 standard, its a shame its not a UK deact, I've been after a 1917A1 for years. I wonder if Mike can import it?

[Kev]

Just nip over and get it,it's got a Saint-Etienne cert

[britplumber]

'it's got a Saint-Etienne cert', are they legal in the UK? I know the EU rules state that one nations standards are acceptable in all EU countries but I now the UK dont agree with it.

[peregrinvs]

Depends if you can convince a UK court that it has ceased to be a firearm within the meaning of the 1968 act. It would probably mean going head to head with the Home Office as they're not keen on anything that could possibly loosen the UK's firearms laws. Whether or not a law (or legal interpretation) is commonsensical is irrelevant as far as they are concerned.

So if you have a team of high-powered lawyers and the budget to pay them...

[Kev]

Get in contact with Saint-Etienne -
www.banc-epreuve.fr/gb/index.php?rid=3
e-mail : [e-mail]

video (realplayer) - www.banc-epreuve.fr/gb/neutra_gb.ram

The Saint-Etienne Proof House is a State run body and as a CIP member has a reciprocal agreement for recognition of proof with the UK.
On the other hand UK Proof Houses are 'commercial businesses' with a self interest in stoping imported deacs.
As a case note take www.rusmilitary.com , the sell Russian factory deacs that come with a Russian cert and not a UK one.(they are not 'replica weapons or realistic immitations' )
Oleg at rusmilitary cites the CIP ageement - European Weapons Directive 91/477 EEC Annex III (a): For the purposes of this Annex objects which corresponds to the definition of a 'firearm' shall not be included in that definition if they: (a) have been rendered permanently unfit for use by the application of technical procedures which are guaranteed by an official body or recognised by such a body.(full version at bottom of page) -
www.rusmilitary.com/html/c-deact_ak74.htm
They also sell firearms and are members of the Gun Trade Federation but if you contact the London Proof House (as I have done) about the deacs they will say the Russian certs are not recognised.So by definition illegal.
If illegal it seems strange they are still selling firearms like the SVD Dragunov and pre 95 spec deactivated assault weapons without a UK cert ? Why has no court case and prosecution taken place to stop this and make case law ? .......Maybe a prosecution would fail and lead to a loss of revenue for the Proof Houses ?
I would also have thought the Home Office would be aware of rusmilitary.com but they appear to be still trading ?
Not sure if they have a team of high-powered lawyers,but on the other hand they are not wetting their pants either :-)

See what Saint-Etienne say......should be interesting ! If yes I'm free most weekends for a continental jolly, if you are paying for the beer ! :-)

ATB Kevin

[peregrinvs]

All interesting stuff. A couple of thoughts:

- Surely the mutual recognition of proof agreement only applies to live firearms? Proofing a gun and certifying it as deactivated are two different things. This may be semantics, but as far as I’m aware there is no specific reciprocal agreement for recognition of deactivation. It would be interesting to know both the opinions of the Saint-Etienne Proof House and the Home Office. (I suspect the latter one would begin with ‘N’ and end with ‘O’… )

- I too am puzzled by the Rusmilitary guns. Presumably they circumvent the deactivation requirements because they have never been a live firearm. However, wouldn’t this then make them a ‘realistic imitation firearm’ subject to the VCR Act? As you say, if the Home Office didn’t like it, they’d have done something by now so some possibilities spring to mind:
1. Rusmilitary have found a loophole whereby the guns are neither legally a deact or a RIF.
2. They fall under the category of ‘deactivated by other means and have ceased to be a firearm’.
3. For reasons known only to the Home Office’s lawyers, they have decided not to prosecute because it suits their purposes to let it lie in a legal grey area.

Gawd knows...

Cheers,

Mark

[Kev]

Mark on the question of mutual recognition I can only refer back to rusmilitary's statement -
"Type approval by the Russian authorities, member of International Proof Commission (CIP) and modification of its parts excludes any possibility of converting it into an active firearm. Russian Proof Certificate No: RU.MZh03.B00926. This type of deactivated weapons does NOT require the UK proof marks, due to its compliance with European Weapons Directive 91/477 EEC Annex III (a): For the purposes of this Annex objects which corresponds to the definition of a 'firearm' shall not be included in that definition if they: (a) have been rendered permanently unfit for use by the application of technical procedures which are guaranteed by an official body or recognised by such a body. In this case, this body is the Russian Proof Authority. As for the latest Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006, 'deactivated firearms and antique imitations (such as old dummy rifles used for drill practice) are expressly excluded from the definition of realistic imitation firearm and are therefore not affected by the new offence either'. FSU Connections takes full responsibility for the safe shipping of deactivated weapons to any European country, which is a member of European Union."

I know other EU countries that sell UK deacs with a UK cert as proof of deactivation rather than having to be re-proofed to by there own national body or Proof House.

Is there a loophole or 'grey area' regarding RIF's,deacs or obsolete calibres ?
Either it is one or the other ,unless you shoot an obsolete calibre and then it does indeed then become a firearm.

If they were 'toys' the requirement would be for them to be painted dayglo orange or similar,if RIF a requirement for re-enacting and if a recent deac a deac cert issued by a recognised body.
As rusmilitary are citing the CIP agreement and are openly selling them to the UK and EU marked without let or hindrance from any state agency I can only pressume the CIP agreement would hold ?

If the police thought these openly sold assault weapon deacs done to UK pre 95 spec and they were illegal I would have pressumed they would have safeguarded national security and the publics safety and 'banged' rusmilitary up for the statutory legal minimum ?If on the other hand if they were deemed illegal firearms would they turn a blind eye because it suited their purpose ?

I don't know the law or what the outcome would be if anyone should be challenged on owning a rusmilitary deac or importing a Saint-Etienne deac but just offering the other side of the coin from the 'warned off' opinion of the commercial UK Proof Houses.

ATB Kevin

[peregrinvs]

Hi Kevin,

I've been off a-Googling and came across this interesting page:

www.dwsuk.co.uk/New_site/Other/aksu.htm

If correct, it appears they're de facto legal as there's no specific law against them - a nice example of how the UK's unwritten constitution works.

The reply you had from the Proof House is interesting: presumably it was meant in a 'we do not recognise non-UK issued deactivation certificates' sense? (which may be true, but doesn't appear to matter in this case)

But returning to the original subject, I'm still firmly of the opinion that trying to import the French deact M1917A1 into the UK would probably not be a good idea. (It would be nice to be wrong though)

Cheers,

Mark

PS. Dare to dream: maybe some enterprising company somewhere could commission factory deact copies of MP40s, MP44s, MkV Stens, etc..? ;D

[Kev]

Hi Mark,I will counter the points detailed as a matter of interest rather than trolling or seen as being arguementative so as to voice the other side of this.

If a UK RFD was to take a brand new never fired assault weapon from H&K's production line and do the same deac work to it e.g. -

......in place covered by the wooden fore-grip the barrel has 3 cross holes equal in diameter to calibre of the barrel
the chamber is sealed by welding
the bolt is cut at an angle
the firing pin channel is welded
the bolt locking lugs on the bolt and ledges on the receiver are removed
the (gas) piston head of bolt carrier is filed off
the lower safety lug on the bolt carrier will cause chambering of two cartridges at a time, which would make shooting impossible
the magazine cartridge guides are removed to make loading impossible

I'm not sure he would be able to sell it as is, and that no law was applicable to it ?

Seeing that the rusmilitary guns are issued with a Russian deac cert would infer it is indeed a deac especially as the CIP agreement is invoked to substanciate it ?
Indeed the link you gave to Harveys DWSUK website mentions deac 6 times in the first paragraph in relation to these guns.
DWSUK also cite the CIP agreement -
"It is proofed as being inert (by the Russian Proof House). Russia along with the UK and a number of other countries are a member of the C.I.P (International Proof Commission). As a signatory member of C.I.P, the UK has to recognise the proof marks of other member states – in this case, Russia."

It is offered as a deac with a CIP recognised certificate and as a 'Euro' deac (pre 95 spec) it is sold at a premium.

To contradict themselves DWSUK say - "They are considered as replica weapons. As such, UK law regarding replica firearms does apply".....
Not sure how replica applies,have you any details ?

ATB Kevin

[britplumber]

Kev,

Have you had contact with them? Do you know if they understand English?

ATB, Chris.

p.s. I'm on 24 hour lock in at work and I'm struggling with emails.

[Kev]

Chris,as a matter of interest I have emailed Saint-Etienne today.I will post back on their reply good or bad.
I'm still bewildered as to why I could not buy a rubber and wood GPMG to send to someone in Australia a while ago,apparently even though I have a gun cabbinet of legaly entitled FAC rifles I can't own a mock up gun without being a reenactor ?

ATB Kevin

[Kev]

I had an email reply from Saint-Etienne this morning -

Dear Sir,

We suggest you to ask the Birmingham Proof House which is in charge of the
checking of the neutralized small arms in UK and to deliver the
certificates.

Best regards.

Banc National d'Epreuve
5, Rue de Méons - BP 147
42004 SAINT-ETIENNE
Tél : [phone]
Fax : [phone]
www.banc-epreuve.fr

[woodsy]

I see the website does not list it any more. Some lucky collector will be grinning! Sadly, not me!

[Kev]

Just noticed www.rusmilitary.com/ is now selling AK's with German deac certs in the UK ?