Armourer Marks

[todd]

I recently picked-up a “DP” Vickers, Serial Number A9646. On the front of the water jacket it is marked with what appears to be several dates, as for example:

F . A
4.40

Any idea what this means? I assume 4.40 is April 1940.

[britplumber]

its not MA is it?

[todd]

No "MA" but the gun could have serve in Australia.

[todd]

Here is a picture of the markings. Any ideas are appreciated.

[missingsomething]

OK.. here is my kick in the dark. Looks to be a Brit gun... A series was Erith and the serial number is from Jan/Mar 1918 production.

I believe that FA may be Forbes Annex, NSW. The didn't make guns but made components.... I would think that maybe they were set up for repair or refurb. and 4.40 would be the date.

I could be totally out to lunch and it could be just an armourers initials and that date he serviced the gun.

Are there any other proof marks on anything? Around the serial number? What are the marks beside the steam tube (RH?)

just my 2 cents. Hopefully the more intelligent ones here will enlighten us ;D

[woodsy]

I believe the FA marks are some kind of inspection or overhaul mark as they are dated 1930, 1937 and 1940. Furthermore, they are clearly hand struck as opposed to a factory mark which would be applied with a purpose-built stamp. They are not the marks of the Forbes Annex as this was set up to produce rifle parts for Lithgow, and never came into operation until late 1942. I suspect the marks have been applied by armourers in the UK, although I have been through my "Instructions for Armourers 1931" (1939 reprint) and can find no mention of the application of this mark.

[todd]

It is/was a DP gun IMA or SARCO made a "dummy gun" of when imported to the US. I bought it from a third party largely for the price of the non-DP tripod. Unfortunately when the gun was dummied they sandblasted (the waterjacket was loaded with sand) what likely was a beautiful smooth blued finish and destroyed a new 8mm lock. I stripped their new green paint, cut the welds holding in the barrel, and pulled the waterjacket to clean and inspect the interior. Here are few current pictures. The tripod is an Australian WWII mismatch. Vickers tripods of any sort are getting difficult to find at a reasonable price here in the US.

[todd]

Here's what someone suggested. Please let me know if this makes sense.

The “F” is a British service designator that might apply to:

Middlesex Regiment
Royal Naval Air Service
Army Service Corps Forage
Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm

The most probable meaning of the “F” is the Regular Depot of the Middlesex Regiment at Mill Hill. The Middlesex Regiment was selected as a machine-gun regiment and, with the outbreak of war in September 1939, became a Regimental Machine-Gun Training Centre consisting of two Regular and six TA battalions.

[todd]

Identifying the marking on the below front-end cap of this DP-marked Vickers (SN A9s646) has been an interesting quest and raised more questions. I find it particularly intriguing to possibly link the gun to a specific unit. Here are the possibilities that have emerged about the markings if one assumes the “F” dot “A” might have separate meanings.

The “F” **might** indicate possession, processing, or inspection by:

(1) The Middlesex Regiment. Individuals in this regiment were assigned “F” as a service code. This meaning seems an unlikely interpretation since the “F” was assigned to individuals and the unit designation for the Middlesex Regiment on equipment was “MX”.
(2)The infantry depot at Strensall. Before WWII, the British army designated headquarters and depots by letters. Infantry Depot “F” at Strensall was the HQ of the Line Infantry regiments which recruited in the counties of Warwickshire, Lincolnshire, Leicestershire, Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire. This seems possible if the gun was held at the depot.
(3) ROF Fazakerley. According to Skennerton, “F” was used to identify Fazakerley but this interpretation is highly unlikely since ROF Fazakerley did not come into existence until soon before WWII. There is no evidence Fazakerley worked in Vickers.

There are still no suggestions what the “A” might indicate.

The crossed-out dates might indicate storage. According to Skennerton, when arms were delivered to the “factory inspectorate, usually in the employment of the armed services for whom the factory produced the weapons, they were passed into store and distributed to units are required. In some cases, dates were marked when the arms went to store, in the form of month and year e.g., 4.12 or 4/12 as opposed to the issue date…..” The major problem with this interpretation of the dates is that it would have indicated the gun going into storage in 1940 at the beginning of WWII. This seems unlikely.

This all seems to raise more questions that I have answered. A few of the new questions are:

How were DP guns selected?
How many Vickers were DP-ed?
How were such Vickers managed? Were they assigned to companies, battalions, or regiments?

Thoughts or pointers to resources are appreciated. I’m beginning to see the DP guns are more than a beat-up pile of parts but have a rich and generally unappreciated history.

[captain]

hi,
I 've seen similar markings on the stocks of French rifles, like Lebels, French service 1894 Winchesters, ...
FA could then be French Army?
Luc

[todd]

An email exchange with Ian Skennerton resulted in the answer. As Ian pointed out, the key is the small 19/91 RFI stamp at the top. This gives a hint to its service and refurbishing. Given the style of stamping and successive repairs/upgrades at the same institution, the F.A is probably the Ferozipur Arsenal in India. Also, the date, e.g., 10.30, is likely when the gun went to the arsenal and the date was crossed-out when it was reissued. So, the 4.40 might indicate that the gun was never reissued as a functional gun and DP-ed by the arsenal sometime after April 1940. I’ve come to also learn that the F.A stamp can also be found on Martini Henry Rifles.